Marat Markov: Roman, Hello.
Roman Protasevich: Good afternoon.
Marat Markov: As a person from the execution lists, it is quite difficult for me to abstract from your direct participation in the processes that we will talk about today.
But I'll try.
And I'll be honest, it's not for my own sake, but for the sake of people learning to talk to each other.
Since we could.
My colleagues - journalists, I am sure, would hardly have turned down such an opportunity.
But I have the right today, so I will share this conversation.
And I will ask the questions that the media dependent on the opposition and the state media would like to ask you.
I hope you understand that there are no independent media?
Roman Protasevich: Of course.
Marat Markov: It's good that you understand, so no need to explain these things.
The opposition media would ask: did you voluntarily agree to this interview?
Roman Protasevich: Absolutely.
Marat Markov: How do you feel?
Roman Protasevich: I feel fine, the only thing is that I have a little cold, but this is not a reason to postpone the conversation and so on.
Marat Markov: How do you think your colleagues will react to our conversation?
Roman Protasevich: It is difficult to predict the their reaction.
I am almost sure that some of the support actions that they planned earlier will come to naught.
I wouldn't be surprised if many people will call me a traitor and so on.
But I can honestly say that I don't care what they say. I am here and at this very moment.
However, I want to do everything in order to correct my mistakes, in order to try to do at least something.
Marat Markov: So you don't care about their reaction?
Roman Protasevich: I followed some idea of my own, my own beliefs.
And the more I tried not to pry, the more I tried not to think about where the money is coming from, what kind of intelligence agencies are influencing, what is happening – the less I tried to think about it, the worse it all got.
Marat Markov: Will your former colleagues be afraid of your appearance on state television?
Roman Protasevich: I think so. I think it will cause quite a furor.
Marat Markov: Have you done a makeup before this interview?
Roman Protasevich: They didn't touch me at all. The maximum - they put on the microphone on me.
Marat Markov: They like to say that we make up bruises and beatings.
Who knew you were on this flight?
Roman Protasevich: The only time when I told someone something about the flight was the moment before the flight from Athens to Vilnius.
This was the only time during my vacation when I wrote about my movements.
And I wrote it exclusively in the work chat.
There were several journalists who work on the project, plus a couple of people from Tikhanovskaya's headquarters-Franak Vechorko, Daniil Bogdanovich.
Marat Markov: You smiled so much when you mentioned the last name.
Can you give me a specific last name? Who do you suspect from this chat? Who could "hold a grudge against you»?
Roman Protasevich: As you know, I smiled for a reason.
I had a personal conflict with Daniil Bogdanovich.
He was the director of the “Infopoint” network. Recently, the relationship with him did not work out.
I was also emotionally tired, and I didn't want to do any political work.
I wanted to do photography, plus in parallel, two days before the flight from Athens to Vilnius, there was a conversation about my dismissal.
Vechorko wrote the phrase, like: "upon arrival, we will discuss the prospects for our further cooperation." I knew it was going to be my dismissal.
Marat Markov: Whom did you talk to about your dismissal?
Roman Protasevich: There was a call that I didn't get into for an absolutely stupid reason.
My wi-fi was very bad at the hotel, I couldn't join the call. In fact, they said behind my back that I should be fired for missing some petty deadline.
Marat Markov: Who warned you that this conversation would take place, and it would be about your dismissal?
Roman Protasevich: The guys told me, the journalists.
Marat Markov: Do you think it's Bogdanovich?
Roman Protasevich: I am inclined to assume that yes. In fact, I'm almost sure of it.
Marat Markov: You made quite a populist mockery of the appeal of the Belarusian authorities to Poland with a request to extradite you and Putilo.
How could you be so sure that you wouldn't be turned in?
Roman Protasevich: I've never been so sure.
Whatever it was, I’ve never directly insulted the authorities, as someone who almost send photos of dicks to the prosecutor's office, and so on.
I understood that sooner or later I could take responsibility for my activities.
Marat Markov: You have done a lot through "The Black Book of Belarus" and "Belarusian brain stem"
Roman Protasevich: These are still slightly different projects.
I was not into the activities of “ The Black Book of Belarus” project. “Belarussian brain stem” , “NEXTA”-yes. But not " The Black Book of Belarus".
My only contact with “ The Black Book of Belarus” project was that I once held a journalistic workshop, where I simply explained why the headlines are important, what the structure of the text should be, and so on. In fact, this was my only direct contact with them.
Marat Markov: Your companion, Sofia, she was the editor of the extremist telegram channel "The Black Book of Belarus".
They published the data, although she indicated that only the security forces, but, of course, not only the security forces. And you know it.
There were data from journalists, my employees, teachers, and everyone connected with the state.
About 80 prepared publications of posts were found in her phone. They haven't been published yet.
How did you get these data to " The Black Book of Belarus"? Did you pay for them? Or there were enough people who were happy to leak their colleagues, neighbors?
Roman Protasevich: I can only say some of the things that I know for sure. I was not directly involved in this project.
Marat Markov: I'm not suggesting you to fantasize.
Roman Protasevich: Based on what I know, many data were actually transmitted, including by ex-security forces.
In fact, in some groups there were those who are called by the capacious word "rats", who simply easily gave away their colleagues, former colleagues, and so on.
Marat Markov: Colleagues of our state journalists, former "overturned" ones, passed through your hands, did they do this, leaked the information about us?
Roman Protasevich: As far as I remember, it was only the data of CTV employees on the Telegram channel, there were some duty schedules, something like that.
Marat Markov: Yes, we do have it.
Roman Protasevich: I had nothing to do with the activity of publishing personal data.
Marat Markov: But your personal attitude to the alleged celebrities who turned over?
Did you somehow characterize it among yourselves?
The fact that they massively started to talk about the same thing, posting the same posts. Did it cheer you up, make you laugh? What was the reaction?
Roman Protasevich: Personally, it amused me.
Firstly, if people only now decided to show some of their opposition views, then the question is - why only now?
Again, if they had such views before, how did it even intersect with their worldview?
Marat Markov: As we call it: "I changed my opinion in the air" .
Roman Protasevich: Yes, it is the most accurate description.
How?
Even if you allegedly had oppositional views all your life, did not support the government, how did you calmly walk and, conditionally, work in the Belteleradiocompany?
Received money from the state, but at the first opportunity decided to give up everything? This is ridiculous.
Marat Markov: We have such a joke when a person then just writes a memoir "I worked in the system to destroy it from the inside".
Marat Markov: Roman, why didn't you think to destroy your phone in the air?
Roman Protasevich: There are two reasons. One of them is very banal.
That's because we were both in such a state of stress at the time that our brains were practically not working.
I mean, it was completely out of the question.
The primary task was to calm down in general. I was just thinking about it later. It's probably comparable to the feeling of walking into the scaffold. In my case I just landed on it.
Because I understood: as soon as the plane lands, I will have to answer for all that I have done, and for all the damage that I have done to the country.
Marat Markov: Why did you say that the death penalty awaits you here?
Roman Protasevich: That’s simple, because the State Security Committee once included me in the list of people involved in terrorism.
And for terrorism, there might be "a capital punishment".
Marat Markov: What exactly are you sure you will have to answer for?
Roman Protasevich: Firstly, it is important to understand, and I openly admit it, that I was one of those people who published appeals to go out on the 9th.
As soon as I was provided with the documents and charged, I immediately admitted my guilt under Part 342 of the Criminal Code.
This is the organization of mass unauthorized actions.
I immediately fully admitted my guilt in this part. Further, I realized that the appeals that I published, among other things, were the result of uncontrolled riots in the streets. For three days Minsk lived in chaos.
Marat Markov: Protests are not organized only by appeals. I have heard the term "LIVEXATA". Was it a tool to expand the protest image? That is, to create an background, on which the basis messages were then posted?
Roman Protasevich: Let's just say that this was basically the main chat of the administrators of the largest Telegram channels.
It was there, indeed, where the discussions of the upcoming actions took place. The planning was there, work on the agenda, which supposed to be on this or that week of protests.
You can say that this chat is "Xata", it was called differently, was recreated, had different names. The main thing was that the key word was "Xata".
There were administrators of the largest channels, bloggers, and so on. And that's where it really happened, it was such a major coordination chat of street protests and the information agenda."
Marat Markov: Who was the member of this chat, besides you?
Roman Protasevich: Stepan Putilo, Jan Rudik, later Tadeusz Gichan started to enter there, also included Franak Vecherko, who could come there and immediately write a specific theses on which we had to work on.
Anton Motolko, Danil Bogdanovich. Previously, there were such characters as Schreibman, Palchis, Yushkevich, as well as Anastasia Rogatko, who is related to the activities of the headquarter of Svetlana Tikhanovskaya, Victoria Palchis, the wife of Eduard Palchis.
Dmitry Navosha, in principle, is a fairly well-known media person, Yevgeny Malakhovsky, who worked mainly with domestic chats and domestic initiatives.
Basically, all the main decisions were made there, about where the next action will take place, what kind of information agenda we should keep in the near future. All current events and incidents were discussed there.
In fact, one chat served as the main coordination chat of the entire information war and street protests.
Marat Markov: Schreibman is a talented, cunning journalist. Did he also manage all the rebellions?
Roman Protasevich: In fact, I can't say that he managed directly.
But he often expressed his opinion. Or he said that "no, guys, it won't work like this, change it at least here or there, or pay more attention to it here".
Marat Markov: As far as I understand, a secret chat is some kind of nicknames. How did you know who was who?
Roman Protasevich: Many were under their own names.
Marat Markov: So you were sure that these people were the members of this chat?
Roman Protasevich: Yes. Someone tried to hide under other nicknames.
Bogdanovich was either John, or Castus, or curator, or someone else.
There was another man named Miroslav Chigir, if I remember correctly, who worked for “Belarusian Brain stem”. Later, he was engaged in some investigations, as I understand it, together with “The Black Book of Belarus".
His nicknames were constantly changing there, too. Now I can't even remember which ones, because he changed them there literally every week.
Marat Markov: Despite the fact that you are here, this chat has remained, is it just called now in a different way?
Roman Protasevich: For sure, it has already been recreated, but there is still the word "hata". But that was the last name, and it didn't seem very safe.
Marat Markov: As they say, there is nothing safe in this age of technology.
Do you personally believe that Putilo will not betray Vecherko, at some point, that Latushko will be able to get along with Tikhanovskaya, and Strizhak will not sell them all, if it is profitable for him? Do you believe in such an alliance?
Roman Protasevich: I think everyone understands perfectly well that there were a lot of problems between the initiatives and the headquarters.
I will reveal a terrible secret, the People’s anti-crisis management (PAM) was supposed to be launched by Svetlana Tikhanovskaya.
And, in fact, it was supposed to be her cabinet. But a day before the start, Latushko somehow got access to everything and announced the PAM as his initiative.
Before these events, Pavel Latushko tried to bargain with Svetlana Tikhanovskaya for the position of head of the government. And he just stole the project a day before the launch.
This is the simplest example of how much internal squabbling actually happens.
Vechorko almost stuffed the face of Yerokhovets, the representative of the "Country for Life".
That is, there are a lot of internal conflicts, and this is actually what the headquarters are mostly afraid of. It is clear that everyone is pursuing their own interests.
Marat Markov: Which ones? What are they fighting for?
Roman Protasevich: I'll give you an example.
Look at the attempts of Olga Karach, she constantly tries to shout the loudest on every stream, on every video, to become a "navel of the earth", every week almost to impeach Tikhanovskaya, tries to turn the diaspora away from Tikhanovskaya with all her might, and so on.
In fact, she is just working to annoy Tikhanovskaya in order to gain access to the diaspora's finances.
She's not even interested in power. She's really interested in the money.
Having lived in Lithuania for 10 years, she has a house with an area of about 600 square meters in an elite area of Vilnius.
Do you think it comes out of nowhere? This is the simplest example of what is happening.
And similarly, there is a lot of internal competition.
In the same way, there are some internal conflicts. Even claims to BYSOL, even though I personally know Andrey Strizhak.
Everyone is well aware of the claims that were addressed to BYSOL.
They were clearly not unfounded, because when there was money, and then they abruptly ended, then, of course, we also discussed it on the corridors, even though not in public.
Marat Markov: Did you claim it to him?
Roman Protasevich: This was discussed behind the scenes, because one of the main things, in principle, was in the headquarters of Tikhanovskaya.
For example, Latushko never publicly opposed Tikhanovskaya. He’s, in fact, stolen her project in order to realize his ambitions.
Marat Markov: And she swallowed it.
Roman Protasevich: The main point is that the headquarters do not publish internal conflicts, they try to keep silence, even when, as it seemed to me, they do not need to be silent.
As well as they keep in the family, so that the whole world does not see how many internal conflicts they really have.
And in terms of funding, and in terms of political ambitions, and in terms of some areas of influence.
There are a lot of examples. And in almost all the areas there is an interspecific competition.
Marat Markov: Our ordinary average viewer is interested in how the representatives of allegedly "new Belarus" live there.
Roman Protasevich: Of course, almost all political leaders who are abroad, they live in good conditions.
There are two main headquarters - of Latushko and of Tikhanovskaya.
But, of course, they are on different levels.
Of course, Svetlana Tikhanovskaya is now the main Belarusian politician for the entire West.
Marat Markov: How does Latushko feel about this?
I understand that he is a smart man. I know him personally, and I understand that for him it is like a sickle, that a woman is above him, whom he obviously does not perceive as a leader.
Roman Protasevich: In fact PAM - the headquarter of Latushko, has to mimic under a large force, that is, under the strength of the headquarter of Tikhanovskaya, meaning in the circle of the Western political world.
Marat Markov: You mean he is forced to do it, right?
Roman Protasevich: Of course.
He can't go out and speak openly, because he doesn't have enough political weight, enough support, and so on.
The simplest example is what has happened recently. Appeals to go out on a Victory Day.
Firstly, even from the point of view of some common sense, a Victory Day is clearly not the day when you need to go out with some kind of protests.
This is, first of all, a memorial Day. And to spoil this day with your own political ambitions is, at least, low.
Moreover, the promotion of this one on May 9 was a clear indication that, most likely, he was simply told: you need to show your support, or you will no longer receive the funding.
Marat Markov: And where does Latushko live?
Roman Protasevich: As far as I know, Latushko rents an apartment in Poland which is about 3 thousand euros per month.
This is a very good accommodation.
Personally, I have not seen this apartment, but, again, this is all discussed on the corridors.
In any case, there are some discussions, perhaps not even in chats, but in person.
Similarly, they joke that Latushko is probably now looking for new funding in order to transplant a new liver due to the problems with alcohol.
And at the same time, he lives on a grand scale in such an apartment.
Exactly the same is arranged in the headquarters of Tikhanovskaya.
I do not know in what kind of house Tikhonovskaya lives, what her income is, because this information is strictly closed.
The Lithuanian special service works for Tikhonovskaya.
She has her own secure home. Tikhonovskaya, in fact, is guarded by an analog of the presidential security service.
Marat Markov: My competent employees who are well versed in fashion, they emphasize the fact that she has become much better looking.
And her clothes are now exclusively branded.
Roman Protasevich: Of course, a team of stylists and designers is working on her image.
Marat Markov: Trips around the world, numerous meetings and personal security, she has a whole staff of assistants - consultants, stylists.
At whose expense is the banquet? Obviously, the 15 thousand that she received when leaving Belarus is not enough.
Roman Protasevich: Firstly, part of Svetlana Tikhanovskaya and other oppositionists in Vilnius are supported by Lithuanian taxpayers.
That is, Lithuanian taxpayers, in fact, support a foreign politician out of their own pocket.
Partly, these are private sponsors, representatives of the business elite.
Here is another question: what are the interests of those businessmen who sponsor Svetlana Tikhanovskaya?
I’m also interested to know the answer for this question. In addition, Svetlana Tikhanovskaya enjoys financial support from diasporas. So, there are many sources of funding.
Marat Markov: If we are talking about the taxpayers, then we are saying that this money, one way or another, goes through the state?
Roman Protasevich: Of course, she has a motorcade with all the conditions, a full-fledged security service, typical for the president.
This is a full-fledged special service that is engaged in its protection, transportation, and so on.
Marat Markov: But Grybauskaite moved without such a motorcade, without such security. Apparently, other times.
Marat Markov: Who pays 3 thousand euros for Latushko's apartment?
Roman Protasevich: It is obvious that there is funding, no need to go to a fortune teller here, I mean from Western countries and so on. It is profitable for Lithuania and Poland at least to keep Tikhanovskaya, Latushko.
Marat Markov: Why?
Roman Protasevich: Let's take a look at the situation even from the point of view of Lithuania's foreign policy.
Having lived in Poland before, I felt a striking contrast to what is happening in Lithuania: higher prices, a completely different income level. Life is much more expensive and poorer than in Poland.
Look at what is happening with Lithuania's foreign policy now. They are trying even to cross the road to China. But this is ridiculous. Where is Lithuania, and where is China?
Again, due to the fact that Lithuania maintains the same headquarters of Tikhanovskaya and provides supposedly comprehensive assistance to the Belarusian opposition, it, of course, also receives political dividends from the West.
So, the West allows, roughly speaking, Lithuania to bark at the whole world without any consequences.
Although, frankly, it is ridiculous - where Lithuania is, where Russia or China is.
This also applies to Poland. Poland also has its own problems related to the accommodation of refugees, and the fact that, the Polish economy, it significantly consists of huge injections that have been actively entering the economy for several decades, without which Poland would not have survived at the time.
If earlier there were questions why Poland does not want to accept emigrants and so on, now Poland can allocate support to the Belarusian opposition. Relatively speaking, " here we are helping Belarus, so we will not interfere and accept, for example, migrants, here we have funds, we allocate them to help Belarus."
Poland has intensified very much its foreign policy, and has made and is making some loud statements, despite the fact that the West did not allow Poland or Lithuania to do this before.
Marat Markov: And ByPol, as an organization – is it a Polish or Lithuanian brainchild? Or is it a joint project?
Roman Protasevich: The ByPol office was located on the same floor and in the same office building as the PAM headquarters, Latushko’s headquarters.
Marat Markov: Must be a coincidence, of course.
Roman Protasevich: This is probably a pure accident. The sources of financing are almost certainly also Polish, because in order to rent an office, pay salaries, rent apartments - all require money.
Marat Markov: I understand this, but if you specify it, look, Belsat, they do not hide the sources of their funding. Belsat is a Polish television channel broadcasting to Belarus.
If Belarus falls apart, they will be happy, they have fulfilled their media task. But are they directly funded from the budget by the government?
Roman Protasevich: Of course.
Marat Markov: If we go back to the sources and say that the second part is businessmen who are most likely interested in the assets of Belarus. Public money, they do not go directly, there must be some spacers in the form of funds.
Roman Protasevich: Not necessarily. Again, the NEXTA project, "Belarusian House" in Warsaw, the government directly allocated funds in the region of 50 million zloty to the pockets of a private Belarusian organization.
Yes, and the Prime Minister came personally. For sure, there are also general corruption schemes.
Marat Markov: We will go back to this moment later. When and under what conditions will the governments of these countries finally get tired of funding the Belarusian protest?
Roman Protasevich: There are no more protests, and they are unlikely will happen.
I can say more. In recent months, when there were still attempts to call for some actions, some street protests, I personally had a conflict, including at the headquarters, with the same Vechorko, with the representatives of ByPol about street activity.
Because I openly said that we do not have streets any more, we do not have them and will not have them.
That’s it for now, and it is stupid to try to continue to call to go out on the streets, when objectively no one will come out. It just doesn't make sense.
"We need to focus on other tasks," but could come the same evening and say: "Roma, you have to think about the street, because you have to understand that if there will be no street- there will be no sanctions."
This is a direct phrase that I personally have heard repeatedly.
Marat Markov: I thought you would say if there would be no streets- no funding.
Roman Protasevich: These things are interconnected.
Marat Markov: So that's why they had to land the plane with you?
Roman Protasevich: Again, why I was sent on vacation. I openly said: objectively, we’ve lost everything. Moreover, I wanted to leave to work not in Telegram channels, but just as a photographer for Tikhanovskaya.
Marat Markov: Why your curators don't understand this?
How much more are they willing to finance those who talk about protests, those who talk about sanctions, those who are abroad and live at the expense of these curators, at the expense of these budgets?
Is there a point when it will be said: guys, it’s enough?
Roman Protasevich: There are no street protests now, and there definitely won’t be any.
Just, again, why the same sanctions are moving. It is clear that this is an instrument of political pressure.
But given that there can be no street protests in terms of political freedoms or political movements, the sanctions are necessary to ensure that the Belarusian economy collapses as quickly as possible.
And if the economy collapses, people will go to the streets. These will be hunger riots. And this is one of the goals of the economic sanctions that continue to be imposed.
Marat Markov: And do your leaders understand that this is the goal they need to achieve?
Does Tikhanovskaya understand that people need to be forced to starve in order to solve her problems?
Roman Protasevich: I am more than sure that everyone understands it perfectly.
Marat Markov: What is your attitude to the current President?
Roman Protasevich: I won't hide it, I criticized Alexander Grigoryevich a lot. Naturally, because, as it seemed to me, there were reasons for this.
But I've been a journalist all my life. But when I became more and more involved in political work, not in journalistic work, the more I wanted to run away from there.
And the more I began to understand that many of the things for which Alexander Grigoryevich was criticized are just attempts to pressure.
And that in many moments he acted, I apologize for such an expression, he acted like a man with steel balls, despite all the pressure and so on.
I will not hide the fact that there were some moments where I think maybe some decisions were wrong.
Marat Markov: In one word, do you respect him?
Roman Protasevich: Absolutely.
Marat Markov: I will not hide it, I am also interested in your personality, it is very interesting, that's why we are talking here.
Let's voice the question that is on the tip of your tongue: which telegram channels were you personally involved in?
Roman Protasevich: First of all, this is "Nexta", this is the project "Nexta", yes, "Nexta Life" , and later it was «Belarusian brain stem".
Marat Markov: If you were directly involved in these channels, but you are always considered together, Putilo and you.
And what we talked about, I, however, from the outside, as a spectator, always perceived it, that Putilo is the main one, and Protasevich - in the background.
I'm not saying you were running errands, I don't want to offend you, but I always felt the impression that he decides, and you help, he makes a decision, and you suggest.
What was the decision-making hierarchy among the two of you?
Roman Protasevich: You see, in general, probably, one of the main things that I would like to say is that in fact, the personality of Putila is extremely overrated in society.
I won't say that there is a monument there, at least a bust, and in fact this is the person who has never directly made decisions there about protests, about some things.
Even the project "Nexta" - it was not a project of Putilo, it was invented from the very beginning by another Belarusian journalist Vladimir Chudentsov, even the story of Nexta began in principle with a song written in 2015, I think, "There is no choice" it was called.
It was written entirely by Chudentsov, and Stepan simply performed it. Do you think an 18-year-old kid will be able to speak the NTV language during the heyday in the 90s?
With a clear pitch, it's obviously not. The same telegram channels were created by Chudentsov in the same way.
Putilo was just doing his studies and acting as a voice actor, he was just voicing the role.
Later, when Chudentsov was put in jail, I went to do all this work. And I was the only one who handled the telegram channels.
And I really perceived the telegram channel "Nexta" even before the protests exclusively as my brainchild.
Marat Markov: Tell me honestly, as far as I understand the technologies that are used to promote channels, I perfectly understand what bots are, what target is.
Were all the subscribers real ones?
Roman Protasevich: It depends on what stage.
Marat Markov: We're talking about the peak stage.
Roman Protasevich: At the peak stage, when the same channel "Nexta Life", he had, in my opinion, 2.3 million subscribers, something like that.
Again, it is important to understand that the Belarusian audience was at most 500 thousand.
Marat Markov: I was also signed, I will not hide it.
Roman Protasevich: I think almost all were signed, even though…
Marat Markov: This is a professional duty.
Roman Protasevich: Of course. I can say that again, the real audience is more than 500 thousand.
And the real audience inside the Belarusian telegram channels is visible now, if you open the statistics page on services like "Telemetr" or "Tegastat".
And these huge disadvantages that go everywhere, this is a drop in the audience and that's how all these numbers will freeze on the pre-protest numbers.
Marat Markov: I will ask the question directly: so it turns out that Putilo is a project of the Polish special services?
Roman Protasevich: Polish- or not Polish, but again, all the laurels that he received, he received them at the expense of the work of other people.
Initially, for example, the project "Nexta" lived exclusively through the sale of advertising. It means, there were no third-party infusions.
But later it began to happen just in the summer of 2020. A large number of very interesting things began to happen.
If I try to go into the wilds and details, first, as soon as the editorial board of "Nexta" just wanted to enter the premises of the "Belarusian House" in Warsaw, which is headed by such a figure as Ales Zarembyuk.
As I remember now, we, the journalists, together with Stepan, went there, just to see at least a small room, while everything was dirty, cluttered, we all had to clean up, clear up and do everything ourselves.
We just looked at this room, and Zarembyuk comes out, and just smiles and rubs his hands. That is, we did not even have time to agree that there will be an editorial office there, and the first thing he said was: "Oh, guys, I already have such an interesting project for American grants, like, let's think about it together."
We just laughed then. I remember a minute not in the open, we were standing there with Rudik, and just like that, in the palm of your hand, we started giggling.
Because it was just funny. We didn't even have time to move in, and we started talking about grants right away.
Marat Markov: Was it profitable for him that you would appear there?
Roman Protasevich: Of course!
The same "Belarusian House", it was falling apart there, there was no funding really, nothing.
Now the "Belarusian House" in Warsaw is the leading organization that will control, in fact, all Belarusian events, the entire Belarusian agenda.
Personally, through the Prime Minister of Poland, through the pockets of the "Belarusian House" of Warsaw, 53 million zloty were allocated to help Belarusian refugees.
You know what's most interesting?
The money seems to have been allocated, i.e. our editorial office was sitting there, the intercom was ringing all day, people really tried to come and ask for help. And no one has ever opened it to people.
Although the intercom constantly rang from 7-8 am to 10 am, sometimes even till 11 pm.
Marat Markov: Did the Belarusians come for help?
Roman Protasevich: But no one just opened the door.
Marat Markov: They were not given anything at all?
Roman Protasevich: Apparently not. And when later, of course, I expressed my dissatisfaction, we had a conversation with Zarembuk, during which, at one point,
he simply said in an extremely harsh tone and with aggression that if I put my nose where it is not necessary, then I will have problems.
Marat Markov: Well, where's the money? The first question.
Roman Protasevich: I think the question is rhetorical. This is the first moment, i.e. what is happening now for the" Belarusian House "in Warsaw," «Nexta» has become essentially a cash cow.
Look, the same "Belarusian house" in Warsaw was allocated an elite cottage in an elite area of the city with security, and a conference hall.
Marat Markov: It was after you started working for yourself, wasn't it?
Roman Protasevich: Of course, it was all later. It would seem that it is just a Belarusian emigrant organization.
Marat Markov: Is this a protected cottage?
Roman Protasevich: Of course. And what's more, I've never even been allowed to go inside. And what's more, as far as I know, there are even rooms that no one can enter.
What is there!? That’s the question.
Zarembyuk in fact started simply, as I understand, using Stepan as a cash cow, including for his own interests.
And immediately there were high-level meetings directly with the Polish government.
They went to the editorial office, to the premises of the Belarusian house, where the editorial office of "Nexta" was located, and we were just guys-journalists, it was even before the protests, the Prime Minister of Poland came there.
Marat Markov: Do you mean that it was not Putilo who organized this, but Zarembyuk?
Roman Protasevich: Of course, and look even now. And moreover, even earlier, Zarembyuk had a lot of questions about how he works with grants, with finances, and so on.
Even Ekaterina Yerusalimskaya, with whom we worked together, at that time we were in a relationship.
Even after that, she said that in general, and one of the reasons, the conflict that was inside the editorial office, and that Ekaterina and I did not agree with the fact that Stepa began to work closely with Zarembyuk.
Marat Markov: Does it mean they put you aside?
Roman Protasevich: Yes, and after that, the attitude towards us also began to change.
Markov: And whose grants was it? Only Polish?
Roman Protasevich: I do not know, I have never been allowed to financial issues.
Even in the "Nexta" project itself, if we speak independently in connection with the" Belarusian House " in Warsaw,
although you will see that even now what I saw on TV in fragments, now the actions that were held in my support, my parents are standing there and Zarembyuk is standing behind them.
What does he have to do with my family? And all this is still happening against the background of the logos "Belarusian House in Warsaw".
Marat Markov: So they (your parents) are profitable for him?
Roman Protasevich: Of course! I'll be honest, I was very outraged by this.
Because, in a good way, I am more than sure that there are corruption schemes, most likely, connected by the Polish government with the ruling party " Pis "and" Belarusian House", for sure, there are too close ties.
Secondly, again, now my parents, as people who are absolutely not knowledgeable, talking on the background of the same logos of the "Belarusian House" in Warsaw and Zarembyuk and Putilo are sitting there.
What do they have to do with me, and why all this is happening under their most direct patronage – a rhetorical question.
But for me personally, I will be honest, I am deeply offended by this. I still return to the question of the sources of funding.
Marat Markov: An important question.
Roman Protasevich: Initially, the Nexta project really lived by selling advertising, while advertising posts, as the largest player on the market, of course cost a good money.
Marat Markov: You haven't moved to the Belarusian house yet?
Roman Protasevich: No, it was already in the "Belarusian House", but then there was no talk of any detailed grants, there was advertising, later Stepan launched one of the moments - just reader’s donations.
So that people could support the project. In principle, this is exactly the same, as it seems to me, an absolutely normal means of monetization, i.e. readers absolutely of their own free will can simply support the editorial office for a certain amount.
Probably, the first reason for the conflict was that soon after that, and it will sound very interesting now, the Russian financing of the Nexta project.
Marat Markov: How did it happen?
Roman Protasevich: Yes, I thought you would be surprised, but the point is that yes, Russian money is present there. What was it expressed in?
Initially, when these reader donations were opened, they received small deposits, usually up to $ 20.
Later, somewhere, I don't remember, it was about the month of June.
But again, somewhere within two weeks after all this was launched, Stepan himself boasted that now regularly a Russian company makes a large transfers, and showed the Paypal platform, if I remember correctly, and there it was visible, Stepan showed on the monitor, scrolls through small deposits, then op-plus 3 thousand euros, plus 5 thousand euros, one-time, but constantly.
Consistently at least once a week.
The name of the company was clearly indicated there, it was, I can't remember its name exactly now, but it was somehow connected with the Urals, with the mining.
I can't quite remember it, but I will now explain the most interesting things that started to happen next.
I decided to search the Internet, and I remember exactly that I came to the conclusion that the owner of this company is a well – known Russian oligarch.
But that's not even the point! The most interesting point is that this person is a direct competitor of another, in principle, well-known Russian businessman Mikhail Gutseriev.
Marat Markov: Did you Google it or did you know for sure?
Roman Protasevich: I've read it, I'll finish telling you.
I read it and I understood that these people, they work in the same field, i.e. they are competitors.
Later, there was another interesting fact, information was published about the founding convocation of Slavkaliya, it seems, about the personal movement of Mr. Gutseriev's plane, there were some other internal documents, and so on.
And this is the fact that this was not the random information obtained from, roughly speaking, anonymous sources of readers, this is the information that Stepan personally sent to the work chat and said that this should be published.
Marat Markov: Independent Journalism, Roman.
Roman Protasevich: And later I said out loud, you understand that this is more like industrial espionage, and not some kind of journalism.
Marat Markov: This is, to put it mildly.
Roman Protasevich: And later, as far as I know, Stepan almost certainly met with this Russian oligarch, and he flew to Warsaw.
Stepan was worried, he was looking for suits, he practically did not come to the editorial office for three days, and then came in a brand-new expensive suit, came for a couple of minutes and then ran away again.
Marat Markov: If you remember this Russian agenda yourself, I remember that when the protest moments began in Russia a few months ago, your channel changed, weren't you still there?
Roman Protasevich: No, I left the «Nexta" project at the end of September 2020.
Marat Markov: Because I was struck, he switched to the Russian theme and quite abruptly and very quickly, and within a few weeks then ended this theme and left again.
Roman Protasevich: I can say that even then it was discussed that after the end of the active phase of the protest, the Nexta Life channel would become Russian.
And I was very outraged by this, because from the point of view of even the media, this is the biggest asset.
Marat Markov: Was this discussed as a plan, as a work forecast?
Roman Protasevich: There was a discussion about this, i.e. there were talks about maybe we could create a separate channel in Russia, in Ukraine, etc.
From the point of view of the media business, this is not surprising.
If you take a leading position in one country, you can go to neighboring countries where the brand is already well-known, i.e. if you just talk about the media business.
But to translate the most important channel, the life channel, to the Russian agenda, for me, to be honest, still remains a big mystery.
Perhaps this can be explained on the other hand, because there are almost certainly 70 percent of the audience and 70 percent of all subscribers were subscribers from Russia.
It is important to understand that the Belarusian telegram has its own ceiling, in total, probably, the number of telegram users in Belarus is about 1 million people, how many of them will subscribe to all the channels and how many of them use telegram only as a platform for chats.
Marat Markov: I just compare facts and I always like to do it.
Some refugees, political refugees come to another country: to Lithuania, to Poland, cottages are rented for them, security, hyper-care, escort around the world, organization of meetings with leading leaders of different countries, European countries first of all.
Very high-quality psychological techniques that are used, including for organizing a protest.
Are there no special services behind the headquarters?
Roman Protasevich: They are standing.
Again, the question is that often even me, as one of these the main fighters of the information war, often even I did not have an access to any meetings, to the moments where decisions were made, by whom and how they were made.
Marat Markov: So you just got agendas?
In fact, today I was going to a meeting with an ideological opponent.
With a person who is officially listed as a terrorist.
But the end of the interview was emotionally unexpected for me. It probably makes everyone to think...
The interview lasted more than 4 hours and unfortunately, not all the names, events and facts we can make public until the end of the investigation.